Life on the Spectrum with Ash

Ash is a Jamaican British writer, podcaster and techie who is working to bridge the digital divide for marginalized groups and to bring awareness to the injustices faced by Black people every day.

Transcript from a conversation recorded 8/23/20

please excuse any typos. link to listen to the recording of this transcript here

Ash: I feel like having the label of autism is seen as something that disrupts what our parents believe. It disrupts basically their politics of respectability. It’s seen as a stigma because they see us as less than perfect

Beyond our Cells is a podcast where I Taylor Camille share stories by those living a life fully and beyond any stigma or perceived limitations a health condition may have on their day to day lives For season two of the series we’re highlighting stories from Black men, the stigmas around caring for their health and bodies beyond fitness and examining masculinity.

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After speaking with Lauren Melissa and Tyla Grant about their journeys with autism in season one, I was looking to get a male perspective on the topic. This week, we’re speaking with Ash. He is a Jamaican British writer, digital inclusion maestro, as he calls himself. He obsesses over tech and anime. He’s also a podcaster and he’s in the planning stages of work that will help bridge the digital divide.

By the end of our conversation, we felt like we needed to have several follow up episodes to go in depth about the nuances of our lineage as relates to how we approach health, masculinity, and many other topics that deserve their own space in their own time. But this was a good start. Here’s Ash

Ash: I am Ash I’m Jamaican British, 28. I was born in London, born and raised in London folks are Jamaica and, diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome as it was known back then at age of 15. So yeah, that’s it really?

Taylor Camille: And you’ve been pretty vocal about it. I mean, I think what was cool about finding people? Especially Black people that are talking about it is it kind of puts a face to what seems to be overlooked. You know, I think a lot of times when we look at autism, either reports or other things I was finding that it just, wasn’t very representative of all the people that it affects. and so, it’s been cool to see this kind of digital, online community of people, swapping notes and making safe spaces for people to talk about what they experience.

Ash: Absolutely.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. Yeah. And so, something I, yeah.

Ash: No, no.

Taylor Camille: Something I had asked, so. Last season, I focused on women and Black women in particular. And I asked them, I spoke to two women. One woman was in, in the UK where you are. And I know it was here state side. And I asked them to define autism in their own words. Cause I think, oftentimes there’s these definitions, but they don’t really match. Maybe what’s actually happening, you know?

Ash: Sure. What you’d like me to define autism in my own words. I mean, I can look at it very literally in that it’s a, if you want to call it developmental difference or neurological difference, that inhibits your social functioning, it can inhibit cognitive functioning and language development as one grows.

However, that is to varying different degrees. I’m sorry, I’ve just taken a very literal, like almost academic definition of autism. As for what it is to me personally, it’s an intrinsic part of who I am. It gives me a different perspective to other folks out there. and it is inextricably linked to my very being, as a Black man as a, cis Black man is part of who I am.

I live at the intersection of obviously Blackness and autism and they cannot be divorced from each other. So that’s what it is to me.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. Do you ever feel like there’s times where they’ve been divorced or people have tried to divorce them from each other or separate them in some way?

Ash: I feel that there are times when that happens, especially when I have been around, neurodiverse people who, I wouldn’t even say NB, POC, neurodiverse people I’d say primarily, white neurodiverse people sometimes trying and just see me as a person who is on the spectrum and kind of like divorce my Blackness from it.

And I’ve had to kind of like hear microaggressions and kind of, but hold up, wait a minute. Did you actually just say what I thought you said? And then I’ve kind of like, just had to let them slide. Cause I feel like in those spaces, it’s very much autism first. As opposed to like obviously being, somebody who is, from a marginalized community.

So yeah, like as I said, the two identities intersect. I’m not going to try and use the word intersectionality too much. Cause I’m not an, I’m not going to pretend I’m not going to profess to be an expert on the works of Kimberly Crenshaw. I’ve read enough, but I’m not gonna profess to be any sort of expert, but yeah, like you have to take an intersectional approach to these things.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. You were going to say something before, when we kind of bumped heads. Did you still want to say that?

Ash: I can’t even remember what it was going to be, to be perfectly honest.

Taylor Camille: I hate when that happens. yeah, that’s very interesting because. I think another thing we talked about past episode was just the word disability and how to reclaim that word as a positive word. and to acknowledge that word as something that, identifies people that need different things, it’s not a bad thing. It’s just like, you need to, kind of, I don’t know, tailor your approach differently for this person. And I think when we think about the role that race plays into this too, I think that’s very much important because the experience of a white person with autism is vastly different than a Black person with autism, because it comes with so many other things.

Ash: Yeah, vastly, vastly, vastly different. I mean, if we are talking about race, we can do it from two different angles. I mean, the angle that I mostly talk about it from and what leads me most dissatisfied is, how ubiquitous white faces are in the autism rights movement. And it’s only recently become, somewhat fashionable or al la mode to include Black faces or to speak up about diversity in the autism rights movement. For example, the National Autistic Society in the United Kingdom, who are probably the biggest and charity for autism advocacy in the United Kingdom.

Have only, just recently started doing more, action with regards to like including Black faces, Black and Brown faces in their campaigns. Speaking up about, situations of injustice, where Black autistic folks have been, mistreated by the justice system, for example, the case of a seam Brown, who, like me is a, Black autistic man of Jamaican heritage — he was actually born there though. He was imprisoned, for allegedly being involved in a robbery, basically what happened is he tried to stop the robbery and he was, convicted under the disproportionately racist joint enterprise law. in America they have something similar, I think in the Southern States called the law of parties. Which has been used, I’m from reading it, which has been used to like execute several Black folks, in Texas and Alabama and so on and so forth. But let’s not get into that. And I’m going on a tangent, is injustice, injustice everywhere. Trust me. but yeah, so he was charged under joint enterprise.

So, at the end of his prison sentence, the authorities want to, deport him. Yeah. And like, they want to deport him to Jamaica, a country that he left as a child and where he has no support system or family. And that’s basically tantamount to a death sentence. And that is something when I heard about it, it was like, how can an injustice like this occur, especially to someone so vulnerable.

And I just, my heart just wept. So I’ve been trying to raise awareness of that, but back onto the topic at hand like the national autistic society and other, autism advocacy, organizations only, recently started making noise about that and only, because they were hassled and because another organization called, I think it was Autism Inclusive Meets, which is a organization that has.

Autistic people of color at the center, they started making noise about the case and so the Neuroclastic as well, another blog that’s run by, autistic people I’m actually, well, I’m recently become a writer for them. I haven’t submitted any pieces yet, but yeah. So yeah, in terms of like autism and race and being inextricably linked, we really need to, get rid of the monochromatic hegemony with regards to the autism rights movement.

That’s the first thing. The other issue with, I feel like autism and race is how, like Black autistic women and other autistic women of color are just, but specifically Black autistic women are just completely marginalized and silenced, like misogynoir plays into it. Misogynoir mean like the autistic community or folks with autism

or the neurodiverse community is obviously a microcosm of wider society, so any oppressive behaviors or any structures of oppression that are present in wider society, are going to be present in this community. And misogynoir is very much present in our community and, as Black autistic, men, we really do need to speak up more for Black autistic women and use our privilege to elevate their voices, especially within the autism rights movement. So yeah, those are my views with regards to like kind of race and autism and so on and so forth. Sorry if I was rambling a bit, but yeah,

Taylor Camille: No,

Ash: I hope I was coherent.

Taylor Camille: You were, and those are all really important things. And I even had a question, you know, With the resurgence or it’s not really a resurgence, I guess just like, wider. I don’t even know how to explain it, but with this, I guess, reckoning, this new reckoning, I guess we can call it of Black lives matter happening on this global scale.

And then, the Black autistic lives matter spurring discussion too. I think I saw you advocating for like the Matthew Rushin case for that he was jailed for like a car crash. Um, and all these cases that happen. I think it’s just, it’s important. It shows you, like you said, the importance of community and having people that are blowing the whistle when these voices have been silenced for so long. And it’s, it’s just interesting, everything happening right now and it, it feels like there’s some momentum and some movement, but it’s been so long.

like who knows? And I think a lot of Black people are hopeful, but it just, it’s also comes from a pain point of like, we’ve been waiting and we’ve been here and we’ve been saying this, so why, why haven’t you been listening? Is a lot of what I’ve been observing.

Ash: Absolutely. Why haven’t authorities been listening? They haven’t been listening because society or Western society at its very core. Or if you want to put it that, or even if you want to say the Anglosphere at its very core is built upon centuries of the subjugation of our ancestors and. Treating us as capital and the Beverly foundation of the society is built on structures of white supremacy.

That run very, very, very, very deep right to its core. It permeates the organs of many, many Western States. And to truly this establish white supremacy, you effectively have to tear everything down and that’s not going to happen anytime soon, is it? So, yeah, that’s the reason why it seems like authorities are inert, especially with regards to disestablishing structures, that are inherently anti-Black

Taylor Camille: Yeah. Yeah. It’s going to be quite, it’s just, I feel like in a deep metamorphosis, like this is going to be in this cocoon for a while with each other. If you look at even just the state of quarantine and this pandemic, it’s just like,

Ash: I mean, and these obviously Western States are built upon a foundation of, capitalistic economic systems, which are also built on foundations of the subjugation of Black people. And for all of this, to be torn down for white supremacy to be torn down, we ultimately have to destroy capitalism.

And again, that’s not going to happen anytime soon, as much as I’d like to think it would be. It’s going to take the complete and utter destruction of capitalism for anti-Blackness to end, as far as I’m concerned, because the two things are intrinsically linked to capitalism and white supremacy are interlinked. One cannot exist without the other, as far as I’m concerned.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. They definitely help each other for sure.

Ash: Sorry, I’m being really, really preachy

Taylor Camille: No, I love it. I just, I think it’s important. And I think, I mean, these are your values and these are like topics that you care about. And I think that’s that passion is it’s palatable and important for sure. the other thing I wanted to talk

Ash: I know, I’m just gonna say, I don’t want folks to think that I’m just this like wordy British dude.

Taylor Camille: No, they’ll probably like it because Americans love accents. Anyway,

Ash: Oh boy,

Taylor Camille: that’s a whole other topic.

Ash: I don’t know how true that is, but yeah, I guess

Taylor Camille: Sorry to give you that pressure. The other thing I was going to ask you in your intro, you. At least on Twitter, you described yourself as bridging the digital divide. And I wanted to just get more info on that. And, I guess, while we’re talking about marginalized communities, and what that, what that looks like for you?

Ash: So, what that looks like for me is, I kind of have like a five to 10-year plan of what I want to do. So, I want to use, opensource software and operating systems and use it to revive older hardware. So, by opera, by open source software and operating systems, I mean, Ganesh slash Linux. So like Unix, like operating systems, you know, like a boon to, arch and next Debby and et cetera, use that to, revitalize older hardware and then give those pieces of hardware to autistic kids, kids on the spectrum and teach them coding skills and prepare them with the digital skills to, enter into, the labor market and the jobs market where digital skills such as programming, video editing audio editing. Are becoming an ever increasingly essential.

So that’s kind of like my plan. I’m planning it at the moment. I will obviously eventually set up some sort of like, nongovernment organization, third sector organization, to do these things but yeah, I definitely want to focus on marginalized communities and communities of color, primarily communities of color. With this sort of plan to bridge the digital divide, especially for folks on the spectrum. and just neurodiverse folks in general, to be honest,

Taylor Camille: Very cool. How did you get into the tech space? And did you teach yourself or how did you kind of make your entry?

Ash: Primarily, in my role, what I do professionally, I was digital lead for my office, in addition to my, other duties of, obviously helping people out of unemployment. So that was one thing. People at work just kind of like lent on me. To, obviously help them with, technological issues because I, I don’t know if I give out that sort of energy.

I also founded a technology blog with my friend, Luke, called Logic Face. I hadn’t written for them in quite some time cause I’ve been really, really busy with like podcasting and stuff. but yeah, I taught myself obviously various like different types of programming, basic HTML and CSS and JavaScript.

So yeah, I mean, working in the tech space, is something I would like to do one day full time, but yeah. That’s how I go into tech as it were, even though my job, technically isn’t tech, but I do carry out like digital duties as part of my job.

Taylor Camille: Work. Yeah, very cool. And I think another question that’s come up in, in various, either episodes of this podcast or just even in my life talking about my health condition is like the question of when do you disclose, like when, when do you find it necessary or, I mean, I don’t know. I guess, do you feel obligated to tell either your job or new friends that you have autism or like when do you, when do you disclose that?

Ash: I always make a habit of disclosing it to people because it saves me a lot of trouble, especially when dealing with neurotypical people. So, if they know that I’m on the spectrum upfront, then it just saves me a lot of like, I’m trying to use a, not trying to use a, not completely British term for it.

Taylor Camille: I want the British!

Ash: I was going to use slang, but just saves me. It just saves me a lot of, yeah, it just saves me a lot of trouble. especially with social interaction. So, if I interact with people in a certain way, or if I’m affected by sensory overload, they kind of have a forewarning. If I react in a negative way, if they cause sensory overload or something like that, you see what I mean? So, yeah.

Taylor Camille: It saves you a lot of work on the front end to just say then rather than waiting till something happens. Yeah.

Ash: Yeah, especially like with romantic situations. I always, always, always disclosed beforehand before the person gets involved, that I am on the spectrum that I’ve had this diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome. Obviously. I know it’s just known as, autism spectrum disorder now because of what Hans Asperger was up to, during the second world war. But yeah, I always disclose that I’ve got ASD always.

Taylor Camille: Yeah, have you, I don’t know if it aired in the UK, but have you watched that Netflix show ‘love on the spectrum’ or heard about it?

Ash: I’ve heard about it. I have heard it was made in Australia, so it was painfully monochromatic. So, I was just like, I, somebody suggested it to me and then I saw who the show focused on and I was like, nah. Like where are the Black faces? It’s just like, nah, I’m not, I’m

Taylor Camille: It was terrible.

Ash: A yeah,

Taylor Camille: We’re at a, what?

Ash: No, I was just gonna say we’re at a Black or Brown faces. Like.

Taylor Camille: Yeah, it’s it was really stark and it was just very apparent to me. And I think I, part of my work is also in media and it was just like, it’s lazy to me. If you only have one type of looking person, and if that doesn’t stand out to you, when you even get the footage and you’re looking at back at it, then that’s even crazier that nothing crossed your mind, or even if it, did you thought that that was okay to just continue in that way? And it’s, it’s frightening to

Ash: Absolutely. I’m like, sorry to use slang, but like, it was actually kind of like, it was kind of a mezza. Like it was mad that it was a madness, like how white the show was. Like, it was absolutely insane. And it’s not like there aren’t folks of color that live in Australia. I mean, it’s like, I’m sure they could have found some indigenous faces.

For that show, but, nope,

Taylor Camille: Yeah. Yeah. There was like, there was an Asian guy and that was about the extent and we all know that they’re like the model minority across the board.

Ash: I was just about to say that, so yeah.

Taylor Camille: Yeah, it’s just really troubling. I mean, I found the stories interesting, but it just, I mean, that lack of color was just so in your face and it, it just feels like it. I think it almost, you take it personally because it’s like, do you not want us to exist this bad? Do you not want our stories shared? Do you, you started thinking and spiraling into, like, why would you make this choice and why would you think that was okay?

And you continually see like media show worlds where people of color don’t exist, fictional or reality. And it’s just bizarre to me. It’s just really bizarre.

Ash: Really, really, really bizarre. But what can you do? I mean, the people that hold the keys to the power are overwhelmingly white, so, you know, what’d you expect?

Taylor Camille: Yeah, exactly, unfortunately. On the diagnosis front, I wanted to ask, you said you were diagnosed at 15. What was that like? Yeah.

Ash: So, I was medically diagnosed after having some issues at school. Let’s put it that way. What was it like? It was, I was kind of afraid of having a label at first, but as I got older, I read more about neurodiversity and the autism spectrum. And it just made so much sense. It was kind of liberating to kind of know why I acted the way I did or why I was the way I did, why I thought the way I did so on and so forth.

So, yeah. in terms of like, cause I know there’s a big debate in the community about medical diagnosis versus self-diagnosis. At first, maybe about a couple of years ago, I was very, very much vehemently like against self-diagnosis, but as I’ve interacted with more and more people and I’ve read more, I realized that self-diagnosis is just as valid as medical diagnosis.

I mean, in the United Kingdom, having access to doctors because we have a nationalized health service where health care is free at the point of entry, it’s a lot easier to get a medical diagnosis. It’s not by any means like easy, because it does take a while because you have to go through a general practitioner, a GP, then you have to get referred to a specific service.

You have to go through different talking therapies and so on and so forth. There’s like a long, long, long chain, especially when you’re a child, you have to deal with these child and adolescent mental health services in each borough, at least in London anyway. That can be very, very obstructionist. especially to Black kids. But in America where health care is by no means accessible to every single member of the population, medical diagnosis is definitely, definitely a privilege. So, self-diagnosis is very much valid. That’s what I’m beginning to learn anyway. I mean, what are your, what’s your take on medical diagnosis versus self-diagnosis.

Taylor Camille: I mean, I think you brought up a good point. It just like access is one thing. So if you have access to professional help, and even, even sometimes if you do, especially as Black people, you’re discredited, like there’s many studies that, especially when I’m diagnosing autism, the symptoms, especially in women are, aren’t as like the same as they present in, in men or boys, children. So yeah, women and girls get overlooked all the time anyway. So, I think it does take, like, I don’t know. It’s I think, I think it’s important to know, or I guess to approach it in this individual since like, like you mentioned, there were things at school that stood out and I’m sure that prompted your parents to seek medical, kind of attention, but I

Ash: Be it. Yeah.

Taylor Camille: I think, you know, it’s, the onus is so much, I think on Black people, the onus is so much on ourselves because we can’t really trust institutions to have our best interest or to, you know, listen when we’re saying different things. So, I think, I don’t know. I think.

You have to approach it, what works for you individually? Always. But I think there is, there is this kind of almost a need for self, at least first being self-aware. And then if you have access to having it, additionally diagnosed medically, then I think that also is extremely helpful, you know?

Ash: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. Especially with Black folks being underdiagnosed with regards to autism, that can definitely tie into like Black children being seen as inherently naughty and just bad behaved as opposed to actually having, neurological difference which are obviously never usually questioned by people that he would come into contact with such as, educators, in, at the various stages of education and so on and so forth. so yeah, self-diagnosis for that reason that I feel like self-diagnosis is a valid tool, especially for marginalized communities who may be neurodiverse or who are neurodiverse, but don’t have the privilege to access medical professionals to be able to get a medical diagnosis.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. It’s really troubling to me that Black children have to be on their best behavior. I mean, and it’s not even just Black children that follows us through adulthood too. Like we have to act above and beyond this kind of like social expectations, where I feel our counterparts are just never restricted into behaving, in such a way, especially when you’re a kid, I think kids should be allowed to be who they are and also not be reprimanded, or like you said, seen as naughty or just like ill behaved, like sometimes there’s other things going on. And I don’t know, there’s, you know, there’s lots of those studies about Black children in schools and them being reprimanded more by teachers, for same offenses as other children, but simply have a target on them because they’re Black and it’s still happening.

And so, it’s like, why, why is it happening? And why is the compassion not extended to Black children? It’s really troublesome to me.

Ash: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I can’t really add anything to that. You just put it

Taylor Camille: Yeah. Do you, do you have siblings and, or did you have anyone in your family where there had been other instances or was this kind of the first diagnosed instance in your family?

Ash: This is the first diagnosed instance in my family, as far as I know. Yeah.

Taylor Camille: And its interesting cause I mean, you think of medical histories and it’s possible that this could have happened before, but who, who knows back to the access? It’s like, who knows if there was or wasn’t and, and I think we also, weren’t given the tools of knowing how to work with it, and learning how to

Ash: I mean in terms of patterns of behavior. Yeah. So, my second, in terms of like suspecting folks who may be on a spectrum, I suspect my old man might be, but again, I’m not a medical professional, so I wouldn’t be able to confirm that. But yeah. I don’t know, as far as I know, I’m the first diagnosed instance,

Taylor Camille: Yeah, and I mean, I mean, there’s stigma around it too. and that’s probably the hardest part.

Ash: Being of Caribbean descent, and being on the spectrum, that’s a whole diff that’s a subject for a whole different episode. The stigma of being on the spectrum and being like within the Caribbean community, that’s a whole different episode. I’m not going to; I can’t delve into that right now. boy. That’s a thing.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. I mean, just generally, if you’ve been to, how did, how did you feel your family and friend’s kind of received it once, once there was that final diagnosis.

Ash: It’s not my family. That’s the issue. My, my mom, my dad, my grandparents just kind of like surrounded me with love, to be honest. But other folks, Boy, they just thought I was misbehaved. Basically. They just think I’m naughty, misbehaved and loud. Whereas that wasn’t the issue. My parents were constantly explaining and so on.

And so “ maybe he’s just naughty, what is autism? He’s, he’s not autistic. He’s just naughty.” Just in one, in one tool, it crossing bottom in, he’s just naughty. Like “you just need couple, you just need a couple of claps in his head or whatever”. Like that’s, that’s all I encountered. yeah, basically, especially with Caribbean communities being deeply religious, again, that may affect how someone who is on the spectrum is received and interpreted, how, how their patterns are, how some, how that, yeah, one second. sorry, how their patterns of behavior of someone on the spectrum may be interpreted by, folks from those communities due to obviously then religion and culture and so on and so forth.

So, yeah.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. It’s quite complex. You can’t solve it all today, but it’s, I think I really appreciate you talking about it because I don’t, you know, people, people are, but I feel like the choir of voices will help us kind of get out of this darkness and this shame and this just confusion that I find ourselves in often talking about health in general.

It’s like just. Like the desire to kind of shush it away is I don’t know where that came from in our culture, but it’s like we should talk about it so that we can feel less fearful of it. It’s here. So, let’s just invite it in.

Ash: One thing. I mean, I don’t know what your background is. I assume you’re just African-American. Is that correct?

Taylor Camille: Well, yeah, so that means it gets muddy, but African-American is what I primarily claim my great grandmother was native American. My, but I, my, my grandmother lived in St. Thomas for some time. So, we’ve got some roots there. It’s

Ash: St. Thomas Jamaica.

Taylor Camille: know U.S well, U.S Virgin Islands,

Ash: Okay.

Taylor Camille: There’s like some feeling

Ash: A Caribbean blood in you as well then

Taylor Camille: Exactly.

Ash: Dope. Dope, dope.

Taylor Camille: So, you know, I’m just a mutt, but.

Ash: But my point was like one thing that is universal about Black communities on both sides of the Atlantic, whether they be Caribbean, African or African American is the politics of respectability and how one as a Black person has to be seen, or it has to be seen to behave as immaculately as possible.

It’s drilled into us by our parents and it’s expected of us by wider society because the minute we are vulnerable, the minute we are angered by somebody’s racist behavior. It’s jumped on and we’re painted as intimidating, angry, noisy, a threat to fragile white folks. and I feel like having the label of autism is seen as something that disrupts what our parents believe. It disrupts basically their politics of respectability. It’s seen as a stigma because they see us as less than perfect. That’s why I feel there’s such a stigma about the autism spectrum and neurodiverse conditions within the Black community.

Taylor Camille: That gave me chills.

Ash: Sorry. I got there eventually, but it took me a while to get out my words.

Taylor Camille: Yeah, that was, that was really well put, I think.

Ash: I promise I’m far more eloquent than I appear to be.

Taylor Camille: Now look you’re putting all this perfect pressure on yourself. I think that was great. That was really, really, yeah. That was really provocative. Yeah, cause there’s all these, it’s hard to map all the thoughts and like condense them, you know, they’re all strung out everywhere, but, yeah, that was really, really succinct. Yeah. The other thing I’m kind of, talking about this season, talking to Black men is just, defining masculinity and whether you feel limited by it, and, how you, how you define it. Huh?

Ash: How long have you got? Again, there is the pressure of being a Black man, but there’s also the pressure of being a Black man, a Black, Caribbean man, specifically a Black Jamaican man. And that is a whole different thing because we’re seen as hypersexual, philanderers a father of multiple children that we don’t take care for.

There’s all those negative perceptions of Jamaican men we’re fetishized by alabaster women seen as inherently criminal. Which again, plays into the whole respectability politics and so on and so forth. and obviously there’s all of that pressure we’re seen as, like inherently homophobic as well. There’s a whole discussion to be had about how, homophobia, the rampant homophobia in the Caribbean was birthed out of, European Christian colonialism and the transatlantic slave trade. But again, that’s a different episode, so yeah, we’re seen as inherently homophobic. So, but I’ve never like, lived my life by those stereotypes, or try to subscribe to those stereotypes. Masculinity for me is just living to be the truest. One second. masculinity for me is just basically existing and living to be the most authentic version of oneself. for me personally, I mean, I’m a massive nerd.

I enjoy anime. I enjoyed Tokusatsu, which is like a Japanese live action, special effects, dramas, like super centai, which is what Power Rangers is based on. so, on and so forth. Godzilla movies, Kaiju movies, that’s all Tokusatsu. Again, me explaining what Tokusatsu is whole different episode. but I sometimes, well, actually not, sometimes I watch RuPaul’s Drag Race, like extensively. Like I’m a massive fan of that. Despite being very, very, very much straight. Like, I cannot stress that enough. I’m not distressing it just because I watch Drag Race, but I’m just saying like, when, when people find out that I do like it, they’re like, wait, what?

But you’re straight. And I’m like, It’s theater. Like, I love the theatrics of it. I did drama in secondary school. I’m like, I love the theatrics of it. So yeah. but at the same time, like I’ll go to the gym like six days a week. I very much like football or soccer as you’d call it. I like basketball, despite being a long-suffering New York Knicks fan, but that’s again, different discussion for a different episode. so yeah,

Taylor Camille: Yeah,

Ash: I’ve never really,

Taylor Camille: You’ve never really.

Ash: Yeah.Really subscribed to like being this match or man, or subscribing to toxic masculinity. Cause like that’s boring, man.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. I was going to say. Yeah, I was going to say, I just feel like, masculinity in itself, maybe similar to femininity, but it doesn’t. I mean, I think the masculinity side is so much worse because it doesn’t leave space for, for men to be soft and it doesn’t leave space for men to be vulnerable. So, and it just makes it out that you guys always have to be fit and strong. And like you said, like have this sexual prowess and I think that’s so unfair

Ash: Yeah, it’s super unfair. I mean, whether we like live up to that or not, and about like being soft and vulnerable, I can be at times, but usually I am very, very much like very strait laced, quite aloof. Which again plays into toxic masculinity, but I’m not like that because I’m subscribing to toxic masculinity, that’s just literally my character, because I’m very much a misanthrope. I live in a European country and I’m just like, I just keep myself to myself basically.

Taylor Camille: Hmm. I only have a couple more questions. I was wondering was there like a two parter, what’s something maybe you wish people would know about autism or what do you love most about your autism?

Ash: Oh, that’s it. That’s it. You know, I’ve never really thought about that. I feel because I have such difficulty forming, like social relationships and with social interaction. I feel like what I love most about my autism is that the friends I have formed while being an autistic Black man are like friends I’ll have for life. So, when I, when I form a bond with someone, I know it’s a genuine bond, and that will hold for life.

And it gives me a perspective on like, I feel like it gives me a different perspective on social relationships and only forming relationships with people, whether romantic or platonic with people that will reciprocate what I put in. And who are genuine individuals, as opposed to like obfuscating certain characteristics, less than savory characteristics of their behavior.

I feel like it’s made me a very good judge of character almost. yeah, kinda like, kinda like how they call Inspector Deck, like the human lie detector. Sorry for the Wutang reference, but again, Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that. Like, I’m a massive hip-hop head, but I’m you being from New York. I imagine you are too. So, but again, different discussion for a different

Taylor Camille: Different different episode we have so many more episodes to record

Ash: Man.

Taylor Camille: Yeah, that’s it. That’s, that’s a good, I like those things.

Ash: Hmm.

Taylor Camille: Did you, do you ever feel, or have you seen, we talked about the, the lack of representation in Love on the Spectrum, but do you, did you, have you seen media or found places that you do feel, I mean, you mentioned some earlier, like the blogs, but have you seen representation in media that felt inclusive of, people of color on the spectrum?

Ash: Okay, so the example I’m going to use is, again, going to expose, what a massive like dork I am. Nerd, I am, but I’m not sure if you’ve seen it, but the 2017 power Rangers reboot movie, Billy, in that movie who was played by, RJ Siler, is it pronounced or is it Kyler, karma, hobbies? I can’t remember how we him it’s

Taylor Camille: I’m really bad at that.

Ash: But yea, so that character, Billy, who was pretty much the protagonist of that film, as far as I’m concerned, he was, an authentic portrayal of a Black man on the spectrum, or obviously he was a teenager in the film. I’m very much not a teenager anymore. But yeah, that episode, I’m sorry, just one second. That movie really resonated with me because of that, because I’m like, it was so unusual to see an authentic well-written Black autistic character that didn’t rely on any of the well-known trodden tropes or stereotypical patterns of behavior that are usually ascribed to people, that are on the spectrum when they are, portrayed in media and fictional media.

Taylor Camille: Yeah.

Ash: Sorry, I’ve got there eventually

Taylor Camille: No, that’s fine. I’ll have to check that. I haven’t seen that. I like fell off once. Pairing just got off the TV. I like stopped walking it, so I need to

all this new stuff is just,

Ash: Do you know what some of these new thoughts actually pretty good.

Taylor Camille: Okay. I’ll have to tap back in.

So, the last question I ask people is what brings you peace? And I, cause I, I asked this question because I feel like oftentimes, we can get so caught up and think life can feel so hectic. And it’s been, especially right now. people kind of feel like they’re at a loss of control. And so, I just ask what brings you peace and it can be anything.

Ash: Does it have to be one answer or can I give several.

Alright, number one, Dipset. like Cam’ron, Jim Jones. The music is just beautiful. Hitmakers production just, ah, just the entire aesthetic the pink, the machoness, just the toxic masculinity, even though I’m not supposed to play like that. I just that Harlem, that, that, that mid two thousands Harlem toxic masculinity is just.

Taylor Camille: Yes.

Ash: Like the drug, the drug and the Coke reps. yeah. Cameron Jim Jones. Juelz, just like every, like every time I see every time, I see you, the feds. So, feds is a slang word for police over here. Just police in general. Like every time I see the feds on road, like I just shout in my head. Cause of the cause of the Gul fentanyl sung.

So yeah, I’m listening to Dipset brings me peace, hip hop in general. Like I listen to a lot of underground rap, but like I’m very, we very much lean towards East coast. I don’t know if that’s because I’ve got fam in, NYC that put me on to shit when I was younger, but like, East coast rap is very, very much everything from tribe called quest MF Doom, Jamal from illegal he’s from Philly. The Roots obviously Philly too, Helter Skelter, so all of the, all of the, Bootcamp Click. Yeah. Helter Skelter, Black Moon Smith and Wesson, Pete Rock and CL smooth, all that stuff. that brings me a great amount of peace. Obviously, Wu Tang, as I said before, massive massive amounts of peace.

Reading brings me a lot of peace. So, the works of Thomas Sankara, our Frantz Fanon Frantz Fanon, Patrice Lumumba, Kwame Nkrumah, to Kimberly Crenshaw, bell hooks. Maya Angelou, like a lot of post-colonial, nonfiction and a lot of, the writings of like Black female intellectuals, like women intellectuals as, as, as, as the previously mentioned named Angela Davis. That brings me a lot of peace.

Taylor Camille: Yeah,

Ash: I know it just like raddled off, a lot of American authors

Taylor Camille: These are all good. Well, I’m biased.

Ash: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I wrote off a lot of American rights. There are like obviously British writers. I read as well. but yeah, that brings me peace anime. It brings me peace, specifically Mecca anime, like Gandam Macross that sort of stuff. So yeah, that’s one of the stuff that brings me peace.

Taylor Camille: I love

Ash: Oh, and my grandma and my grandma’s. I love speaking to my grandmothers. I absolutely love speaking to my grandma’s. There’s nothing better than speaking to old Jamaican women. They are actually the best, the best.

Beyond Our Cells is an original series produced and hosted by me Taylor Camille, a variety of the series artwork shared here and on our Instagram @beyondourcells are created by Carmen Johns and Sierra Hood. My hope is that these listening’s have left you with a warm heart and an even cooler mind. I hope you are left feeling able to seek peace in the spaces and places you may find yourself in.

If you’re interested in being on the pod or have any compelling leads, please shoot us an email at info@beyondourcells.com and subscribe and share if you haven’t already.

Check out our feature on Well & Good here