Capturing Cerebral Palsy with Jerron Herman

Dancer and artist, Jerron Herman talks about life with cerebral palsy, the limitations of our definitions especially when it comes to defining health and wellness or masculinity, and the importance of our genuine expression in building community.

Studies show, Black children are about 30 percent more likely than whites to have cerebral palsy, one of the most common motor disabilities developed in childhood. Through a myriad of technical difficulties and obstacles, in this episode we reflect on Jerron’s journey thus far, the importance of parents that will advocate for you and discovering ways to laugh through it all.

Transcript from a conversation recorded 8/12/20

please excuse any typos. link to listen to the recording of this transcript here

Jerron Herman: I’m really into like, how are we framing health and wellness, and making it open and keeping it open for the things that we’re not expecting to fill it.

Beyond our Cells is a podcast where I Taylor Camille share stories by those living a life fully and beyond any stigma or perceived limitations a health condition may have on their day to day lives For season two of the series we’re highlighting stories from black men, the stigmas around caring for their health and bodies beyond fitness and examining masculinity.

As always, please share and subscribe if you haven’t already.

Today, we’re speaking with Jerron Herman, who is just a wonderful human being. Jerron is a dancer with cerebral palsy though it only affects one side of his body. Cerebral palsy is one of the most common motor disabilities that is established in childhood where researchers have found that black children were about 30% more likely than white children to develop the disability.

We talked at length and I promise you, I tried to condense this conversation into 30 minutes to 40 minutes, but I just could not, there were too many gems and also you’ll hear that we had a bit of technical difficulties. So between that and just the flow of our conversation, I just thought that it was worth it to have this be a little bit longer than our typical episodes. if you need to break it up for yourself, by all means, be my guest.

I’m happy you’re just listening at all. But there is a spot where our connection drops It’s about 19 minutes through So if you want to use that as your barometer to save the rest for another day, but I’ve got to say, I think this is a pretty good episode. and the things and the themes that Jerron and I talk about are just things I’ve been circulating in my mind, especially recently, just, you know, the thought of black masculinity, how we treat members of the disabled community, especially given the recent 30 year anniversary of the American disabilities act. So I hope you’ll enjoy. And here’s Jerron

Jerron Herman: I’m Jerron Herman. I’m a disabled dancer and artist. I’m originally from the Bay area in California. Ye and I moved here in 2009. I moved out here in 2009 to, pursue a degree and, in theater and dramatic writing and then just life went a different path and I became a dancer and I’ve been working in the disability arts space for the last, like well, 10 years.

But really it’s hard to develop my own work, around 2018. So it’s still very fresh and new to be interdisciplinary, independent artists. I’m now working with a fantastic, group company called Kinetic Light. So you’re headed by Alice Shepherd. Who’s just one of the, one of the best in the game. So exciting where I’m at right now?

Taylor Camille: and out here being New York, right?

Jerron Herman: Yes, I am in New York, still in New York.

Taylor Camille: Very cool. Very, very cool. And I, so I kind of came across, I don’t know how I came across you. I might’ve been, I don’t know. I get down rabbit holes and then I can’t, I don’t know how to get out, like in a space. And then I

Jerron Herman: The rabbit hole is not where you get out. You can’t get.

Taylor Camille: You’re right. You’re right. You’re very right but I was there and I happened upon, I, I don’t know.

I saw this video. I ended up on your portfolio and then I saw this like the great big story video you did back in 2017, I think and I thought that was really beautiful, like expression of your journey and like a good snippet into your life. And, in that you kind of described your body, but I wondered if you have an update description of how you would describe your body or even what’s your favorite thing about your body?

Jerron Herman: Wow. That’s such a great question. so I’ll start with like the medical cause I actually, you know, definition, work and definitions in general, like in the lexicon general lexicon, but also in the medical lexicon, in the art lexicon, just the definitions of words and what they, and their importance or their usefulness.

To maybe the artist or just the lay man is like really interesting to me. So I, I use it it’s generative to me. so my medical diagnosis is hemiplegia cerebral palsy. And it’s a condition, it’s a neuroma neuromuscular condition, okay. That, affects the voluntary or involuntary movement and motion of my body.

And then hemiplegia refers to the quadrant of the body that is affected, which is my left side. So my whole left side, is impaired, and has, involuntary motion. To how I feel about my body, there’s this evolving, organization or like evolving, kind of collaboration with both sides that’s happening?

I’ve been, I’ve been feeling like my whole adolescence was about trying to not necessarily erase my disability, but certainly to. Act like it wasn’t there. Like it didn’t serve as a deterrent, to my entry, into society, into my entry, into mainstream academics. And so, my medical professionals, my team, like just kind of went overdrive on trying to make me, efficient.

And then, moving to dance there was a different kind of like erasure or organization, which was to kind of compel the body to make these shapes, make these, make these, these lines angles, this, you know, this sense of endurance, the sense of physical feat. That looked much like my experience with in physical affairs, but for beauty, you know, for the first time through dance, my body was seen as something to create beautiful images just by its very being. So I think that that gave me a lot of confidence at the same time to even want to dive deeper into what my body could give and what it’s about. So, yeah, cause I’m, I’m in the industry because I’m black, I’m male, I’m disabled. Like those are, those are high commodities high, you know, they’re, they’re rarities in the industry. So, the kind of the intrigue from the field, has largely sustained me in well, you know, kind of what I want to do

Taylor Camille: I came across this, I don’t know something online and it was like, Don’t meet people and it jogged my memory. When you said you put an air, CO’s that your body’s not cooperating and it’s like, don’t meet people where they’re at meet them.

Oh no. Don’t make people where you want them to be, meet them where they’re at. And that kind of reminded me when you said, you know, my body is quote, unquote, not cooperating, because it is cooperating, but in its own and its own way. And in it’s, you know,

Jerron Herman: We’re always like, yeah, we’re, we’re always evolving. Like every day is like a new, a new landscape. And I think even the word organization kind of, I kind of wince at that word, because it’s like to, to what extent, you know, what’s the end goal for our bodies or for our, you know, our state’s like, are we, what’s the optimal that everyone kind of has in their brain?

And then how is it, how is it useful to us? I definitely believe because of like my disability lens and disability justice lens that, you know,

we, we live in a world that is created for a sense of productivity and production and action and, renumeration that has really, really relied on the body in of course, century long, harmful ways you know. Just in the black experience alone, like we’ve been known for our labor and to like, for that to be a part of our, you know, even our merit, you know, now in sports are now, and, and, and entertainment like endurance and, and.

Going to the wall, you know, sweating and, and being, of youth with your body has always been a high mark for individuals. And so it’s, you know, it’s the oppressor, it’s the oppressed, like everyone is operating in this hyper productivity state and it’s not getting repaired and it’s not, but it’s not moving us forward us as far as we think it does.

Cause we break down, you know?

Taylor Camille: yeah. When everyone is talking about burnout or talking about not feeling productive is because. You know, we’ve run ourselves down. You mentioned, you know, being a, a high commodity and I send that flickered in my mind and I just wondered how you deal with that gaze. And, cause I think of like, you know, the Dave Chappelle effect where he realizes like, maybe they’re not you know, in on the joke, maybe they’re laughing at him and maybe they’re, you know, all of these thoughts come to mind. So how, I mean, I don’t know if you have an answer, but how, how do you deal with the gaze and deal with knowing that you’re for lack of a better word seen as an anomaly, you know,

Jerron Herman: I quote Beyonce, “the best revenge is your paper.” I am coming up against like a moral quandary around the, even the word commodity and it being expressed or used around my body and about around what I produce because it, it definitely dehumanizes me or it, it, it makes me into a tool, instead of individual and to a certain extent, you know, I love the idea that, you know, I’m repairing, a void I’m bridging a void, amending a void that has been in the dance industry or in the arts, forever.

And now I’m able to insert myself into the cannon. But also like we also have to change why that’s important or, or how I, how I do enter into the space. I just had a really interesting experience where I all of the, The natural or expected ways of maybe showing up for a gig or, or producing something were in line with this institution I was working with.

However, the procedure and the, and the process was not, in my ethic or in my, it wasn’t, wasn’t a high quality for me. And so I really did have to separate, like the fact that I could show up. Maybe tired, maybe worn down, maybe burnt out. Yeah. But I could show up and what’s the optimal state that I wanted to show up in.

And so that was, for me, it really, it was rough because of course I want to never give anyone. Any inclination that might not show up or that I can’t do something like that. You know, like I have, I have amendments, but also I needed to say, I need to draw a line, for how I could sustain, you know?

And so that’s where I’m really at is how to sustain. Like, I love that I’ve had so many great introduction, but it’s nothing. If I can’t. Show up fully. And so I guess that’s the question of like, how did, can you show up fully? and your body has to be in a certain place. You’re, you know, you do, people have to partner with you to make sure that you can do your work because I am disabled.

Like let’s not even like. Let’s say the word, like, a colleague and just, you know, his name is Lawrence Carter Long and he says, say the word, like you get, you get through a lot of the weeds when you just say it. And I think acknowledging it is crucial to what are, what are the provisions? What are the, what’s the access?

What are the, the accommodations that I’ll need to even show up for you? You know, if you’re going to include me, this is how you include me. I think this is happening with, you know, black and Brown folks in different corners of, of fields right now wherein, if you want authentic engagement, you really gotta be authentic and be okay. With the answer to, how can you show up, you know?

Taylor Camille: Yeah, yeah. Stop being so scary about saying it. A girl I interviewed for this pod last season was like, if this is a word, disability is not a, you know, a bad word. It’s a word that allows you to see where I’m coming from, what I need and how you can fulfill that. Right? Like without acknowledging that, then you take away a lot of the learning that could be happening so I feel you there, When, when were you diagnosed with cerebral palsy and what was that like? And I always ask people, you know, was there any incident of this in your family prior? I have my own cousin. He’s a twin and he was born, his twin was not born with cerebral palsy and he was, Yeah. so, you know, watching my aunt navigate that, and I don’t think we had any in our cases on our family before, but you know, you have one able-bodied twin boy and then the other needs a lot of help and you know, just seeing her juggle that has been, was interesting for me growing up as a kid for sure. but yeah, I just wanted to get some of your diagnosis story. And when, when that changed, yeah.

Jerron Herman: Yeah so, I was diagnosed when I was three months old, or six months and so I don’t, I, you know, I, I didn’t have much of,

Taylor Camille: You talked to the doctor. Well, cause I was really, I mean, do people develop pin? Can it be developed later in life? I did see, you know, infants, they tell parents like, look out for these signs, if your infant isn’t moving this way, or if they’re carrying their weight differently.

Jerron Herman: No, it’s primarily a disorder. Like it only manifests within the first year, you know, of a person’s life and of course, early diagnosis is like, the key for everything. But my mom was the one who noticed that, like my left hand, wasn’t opening, as well as my right, and, and floppy. and so, yeah, she actually pushed, I don’t think they would’ve diagnosed me within the first year.

Had it not been for my mom kind of being like, this is what I’m observing. This is what I’m seeing. And yeah, my family had, my brother was a preemie. My older brother was a preemie. And so my parents were already kind of knowledgeable of, I guess, medical crises, medical, you know, jargon. They at least they were open. They were open for, you know, for that. But yeah, like I think, I really actually, I just told my parents that their, they’re kind of instinctual, advocacy, was pretty inspired and to not even have like, And like quote unquote, scholarly, disability, aesthetic, or scholarly disability lens.

They did a lot of things for me before I could do for myself that have, made me comfortable in the world that I’m in, made me, affective in what I’m doing, and also made me secure in my body. Like I think there’s this big, they instilled in me in a priority, value. I’m based in religion, based in Christianity and church and, and God’s view of, of body and, of what creation means. but also in bioethics, I just learned this, like, they, there is like a, in a whole Abrahamic like viewpoint that like the body is essential and like is intact. And so that’s really interesting how that kind of transferred to something that they felt instinctual, but there’s like a medical, strategy behind it or thought process. A lot of different, really awesome kind of windy ways, but I, you know, kind of, was saved from a, maybe a botched surgery or a, you know, an ill-advised, intervention. they said, you know, they said, absolutely no surgeries absolutely no, invasive procedures, you know?

Cause they, they really understood early on that, like your body changes. And so even, even with the category of cerebral palsy, you know, things can change on a young body and things can evolve and establish. so they weren’t trying to stunt what it could be so, yeah.

Taylor Camille: Yeah, that’s beautiful because I feel, you know, some people put some parents, even if they don’t know how to approach it. I mean, yeah, like you said, the inspirational aspect that they would be proactive and be open minded and, you know, advocate for you. I feel like enough and pour into you so much that you feel comfortable in your body to move across the country away from this support system and these resources and be on your own.

I mean, that’s huge.

Jerron Herman: Yeah.

Taylor Camille: Yeah.

Jerron Herman: Yeah, no yea, I credit them so much.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. how has it been? I mean, I know you’ve been in for a while, but when I think of a city like New York, I know that I’m in Harlem and I know that it’s not a city that was constructed to, cater to disabled bodies. It’s not a city that, or like in function, I mean, we’ve been in the house primarily now, but how has it been navigating this city?

And what did it feel like when you first got here? I feel like it has similarities to Oakland but, what were some maybe differences that you had to acclimate yourself to?

Jerron Herman: Well, I think the thing, a step back from that is I was already, I was largely disconnected from disability culture. So I was already, I was really in a place like trying to, not necessarily hide it, but I wasn’t, I wasn’t shouting from the rooftops that I was a disabled, you know, artists. when I, when I first got here, I thought that the virtue was in playing the game, winning the game on, you know, on your own merit is in spite of disability.

And then, then they start to like, oh, then, then they start to really kind of vibe with you and, you know, and, and be with you. So you know, attacking New York city was like a badge of honor. Was like, if I could, I could be on the subway like everyone else, if I could walk two miles in any direction, I’m like everybody else, like there was this, I was seeing the virtue in this concrete jungle.

Taylor Camille: Okay. So this is where we had an interruption just to let you know, we actually had two, but I covered up the first one. I, if you’re a sleuth, then maybe you noticed, but here’s the break that I could not cover up. Well, maybe I could have. But, um, the conversation continues after this. So if you have something else to do or you need to just take a little break, here’s your chance, here’s your intermission.

But if not, the conversation continues after this.

Jerron Herman: Hello?

Taylor Camille: Hello stranger. Is it okay if we just do it on the phone? I set up my iPad and mic. So hopefully, yeah. We’ll get some. Yeah.

Jerron Herman: Okay. Yes indeed.

Taylor Camille: Thank you. We were talking about we were talking about New York, and you were saying you wanted to conquer the city and, it was kind of like a badge of honor for you to, you know, take the subway like everybody else and do things like everybody else.

Jerron Herman: Yeah. That was really my,

Taylor Camille: that was your thought.

He’s like, that’s it.

Jerron Herman: That was it

Taylor Camille: I wanted to ask was how did you get into dance and, and why?

Jerron Herman: Yeah. so I, so I came to New York to be a theater person. I wanted to, I was gonna write, for the stage, and maybe television, I left NYU where I was going prematurely because I didn’t have enough money to stay. And so I transferred to the school called The Kings College I don’t know nothing about it.

It does not have an arts program. And so I start to, I started to do side jobs and, you know, started to try and get internships. I landed at the New Victory Theater on 42nd street as an education apprentice. And like literally the last month of my apprenticeship, I meet this choreographer named Sean Curran, who was a teaching artist and was doing his, like living a workshop in the studios.

And I supported him, but I, he. he made me a participant instead of like his lackey or his, his, his, intern. And so I just like, learned about movement vocab, very, started to, you know, make, just make with the other participant. This is a week, mind you, this was five days. And by the end of it, he had introduced me to, this woman named Heidi Latsky I auditioned for her. And she has a company for a physically integrated dance company in the city. And she was my introduction to dance. She knows a lot about how to create a meaningful and, And unconventional casts of folks.

And so, you know, when she asked me what I was doing, after my session with her, it just kinda clicked. I was like, you know, I’ve always wanted to explore. I’ve always wanted to have like a New York moment. It was kind of like, I just wanted to have a New York moment.

I was wanting to have like an anecdote of like, Oh, those six months that I was like a dancer. I wanted to see, I wanted to kind of just feel and see how the invitation would flourish. And so I didn’t have any desire to like upend the dance industry or become a part of it. It just. It, I love, I love movement movement.

I love moving. I found it really exhilarating that someone was interested in how I moved and I just want to accept that, you know, I want, I wanted to accept that offering, because that’s why I came here. That’s why I came to the city as like became an artist or was chose training, as an artist was to pick up on those invitations. And so I think the simplest answer is that they invited me, like, why did I do it? Because I was invited.

Taylor Camille: And you hadn’t like dabbled. I mean, had you been in the arts when you were in Oakland at all? Yeah.

Jerron Herman: Yeah, I was writing mostly. I didn’t complain. My brother is the actor and so I, and he really threw it down. So I was like, I was kind of intimidated and didn’t really go into acting as much as he did, but yeah,

Taylor Camille: That’s awesome. You have the whole set. You could write the plays. He can act it. It’s great. Oh my God. That’s so, so sweet. So how, how would you describe your choreography and how, how have you made it? I mean, you talked earlier about, you know, finding the lines and different things, but how do you make it distinct to you and, and your expression?

Jerron Herman: Sure, I actually really love movement and a circular movement. I think that they, they look really good on me, but also like for me, it’s a really, deep movement vocabulary because it’s not straight. It’s not. You know, it’s not itching that it’s not ending. So I think that I, when I create work, I’m trying to think about the circularity of movement.

How can I, you know, never get caught in rigidity or if I do get caught in rigidity that I it’s intentional. I’m trying on, like a movement procedure called authentic movement where one person closes and closes their eyes and moves and another person witnesses them and tells them what they thought.

And I think to a certain extent, my audience are different extended. Witness to what I’m discovering in the moment. The other part of my choreography and of my, my work is mostly conceptual. Wherein, I take an idea, I always have a root for the piece. I think it was my, my theater brain or my, my writing brain where it’s like, I have to have a really central idea.

And it’s usually, it’s usually centered on a word or a definition and I want to, I want to establish the usefulness of that word or critique the usefulness of, you know, our ideas around this word. And my movements are supposed to try and, and narrate how to problematize or how to upset our held notions, of, that word or that definition.

Yeah.

Taylor Camille: I love that. And do you feel like when you are dancing, do you feel like, I mean, what has the feedback been? Do people kind of get what you’re trying to convey or, I mean, what do you maybe. What do you hope people, take from your expression? I mean, I loved how you were talking about that form but yeah.

Jerron Herman: Yeah. I mean, again, from, from, from theater, I gained a hard shell of like, you know, just a comfort with killing my darlings if they didn’t, you know, serve the overall purpose. And so I guess I’m not as, I’m not as sensitive too, you know? You know, categorical love or categorical hate. Thankfully I’ve, I’ve largely received, good feedback and people are interested in, I think, you know, I wonder if like I’m still in the, in the spectrum of novelty or being novel.

Um, and so, you know, it’s all new, so there isn’t, there isn’t a real critique. on how well I’m doing something. I think, I think though, that people recognize that you have facility and I do have a sense of training and a compositional brain, that is typical in dance or typical in art-making. So I do, I do really strive to let it be, structured, legible, you know, I, I, as an audience member myself, I love when an artist thinks about the audience as well and, and their time, you know, I think that the chief sin his being self-indulgent and, I try to really, watch that. so I guess really, I just, I would love, I’d love for someone to take away. I really only care that they, that they understood where I was coming from, you know, like they understood like, Oh, this is the, this is what he was saying or this is the thesis. And then your emotions around that could be whatever you want them to be.

Taylor Camille: Right. Yeah. Digest it for yourself type of thing.

Jerron Herman: Right.

Taylor Camille: How have you been keeping up your practice in COVID and with quarantine?

Jerron Herman: Well, I nested for the first half like up until a month ago. I really just settled.

I mean, I just lost, I lost a lot of, things that I was gearing up to do. And I just had to sit in that disappointment for a little bit, you know, like, and I also was very skeptical of everyone else’s immediacy to kind of mitigate COVID and to mitigate it with zoom and projects. And, again, hyper productivity.

I was like, let let me chill. You know, like my thought, like actually, I continue to make and continue to work. and then it, you know, in a, in an awesome way, I was able to support mutual aid funds with my time and energy, I was able to adjudicate artists, like artists funds and, and, and help people get money and get support, so it became activism became, you know, part of the repairing and part of the slowing down to focus on what was crucial. My movement practice definitely did take a back seat if you will. But I also think that like, everything is part of my moving practice is like slowing down, but I did early on make a really cool piece for this UK artist, in my bathtub, which was fun.

Taylor Camille: Oh my God. I want to see that. I need to, is it online?

Jerron Herman: It’s not online it’s like, it was an Instagram Live so it’s no longer around it was around

Taylor Camille: It was a moment in time.

Jerron Herman: It was a moment in time, it was, yeah, I think that was like the first time, the first experience of like finding what my new, you know, what my apartment was doing or what my apartment is as a locus for, for making, But I definitely did continue rehearsing with this project.

I’m on called wired and I was still dancing. I was still kind of doing it, but not with the with the focus on the laser focus I had in the old world.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. I think it’s so important to just, like you said, sit in it and feel everything you’re feeling rather than trying to distract from what you’re going through.

And yeah, we can’t sit in it and remain sedentary for so long, but we have to, you know, we have to acknowledge those feelings and not just gloss over them because this is unlike anything

Jerron Herman: Yeah.

Taylor Camille: Something else I wanted to ask, just cause you know, this season is about black men and I think masculinity is something that is so dense.

And so, there’s so many thoughts and you know, as the surge of like feminist and go women has happened, I’ve started to see, especially for Black men, just like there’s limited spaces to talk about things that have again been glossed over or things that I’m not, I hate the word plague, but plague that community.

And, yeah, when I, you know, took this step into talking about health and wellness, when I look at health and wellness for Black men are resources that are there often what I’m finding is that they surround three things. So it’s like sex and it’s, fitness and maybe it’s diet as relates to fitness and strength.

Yeah. So I’ve been just like, thinking about that a lot and thinking about which men or what men are allowed to be soft, who’s allowed to be vulnerable. And like, when you, when do you feel vulnerable, which is something I’m going to ask you too, but what’s, what’s your approach to masculinity and how, how would you define it?

And maybe even exploring what, what feels limiting to you from the standard and the tradition of masculinity, especially black masculinity.

Jerron Herman: Yeah. You know, I definitely have been thinking about this in relationship to pronoun, and the choices of pronouns. And, I feel very comfortable, still saying he/his because I really do feel, I like being a man.

I think that my, the way that I express them and the contributions are not exclusive from that identity. and I think that’s what, you know, part of my practice is like expanding that definition, you know? And I think that we still useful in a way. I still think it’s like, it can be expansive. and as we’ve seen, you know, in society, but, you know, in terms of, being assigned, it assigned male at birth, I do find and again, this goes back to my faith upbringing, which is like, this was intentional, you know? And so with that intention of how I was brought into this world, I do feel a sense of, a sense of like, what can I do with it? You know, I see I see it as clay and I see it as like melding and molding. And the fact that, like, not that I can not just be one iteration of it.

And I think there are so many examples and, and, you know, just not often talked about examples of men who have done it well, even before we needed them to do it well.

Taylor Camille: Right.

Jerron Herman: So like there’s a fabulous artist named Geoffrey Holder who I just absolutely love. He wasn’t, he was a dancer. he was, he was more well known for Boomerang with Eddie Murphy, but he was fabulous he directed and costume designed the original Wiz the Broadway productions The Wiz, he was married to Carmen de Lavallade, who is a fabulous dancer and so they were like a power couple in the sixties and seventies. And so like, the man is just like Renaissance and I looked at him as like, wow, like you don’t have to just be rigid about who you are and what you do. But I think there’s a, you know, I do appreciate the kind of societal expectation of, of strength of, and not that it’s inclusive from what a woman’s strength is, or feminine strength is, but that it’s, it is a strength. It is something that needs to be a part of the, of the equation. There’s an alchemy that is necessary, especially for the Black community and Black family. That a man, a man’s presence or a masculine presence is crucial to upbringing is crucial to, to formation. So with these things, being a part of it, I do find, comfort. In name naming myself as, but I’m also not typically masculine. Like I like, yeah. Like I, I definitely love silly things. I mean, not that that would like make me emasculate me, but there’s a way in which, my expressions can be interpreted as possibly feminine with the actual also love because it doesn’t, our definitions are just weak, you know? I think that that’s what it is. Our understandings of things are just weak. We maybe only dealt with part of the story and I’d love to just keep it in, keep it in our tongue for when we have something more to say about it. and so that’s where I’m at.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think you’re right. That like our definitions don’t encompass the nuances of everyone and yeah. Yeah, because it’s never a straight forward, like being goofy. Isn’t, doesn’t make you less masculine than someone who never laughs you know? Yeah. It’s interesting though, how we box people in and how we, how we deny others who don’t fit in that box. It’s like what?

Jerron Herman: Yeah. Yeah. Like what.

Taylor Camille: But yeah, I wanted to know when or when do you feel you’re most vulnerable or have you ever felt vulnerable and how do you navigate those feelings?

Jerron Herman: Yeah, I placed a very, high premium on my intelligence. I think because it was supposed to supplant my physical acumens and, when I feel most vulnerable is when I don’t seem smart, or intelligent or, witty.

And, I think it’s because of it’s the top of the Jenga board. It’s like, it’s, you know, it’s the thing that’s most vulnerable, or, or less protected.

Taylor Camille: Right.

Jerron Herman: And up for more scrutiny, because I’ve coveted or have made it to be so big in my life. because I think that it stems from this desire not to be discounted, Because of this, the stigmas of disability, as it relates to, our intellectual capacity, they aren’t corollary, you know? So, that’s why, that’s why you really, I really feel most vulnerable is like if I have a misstep, if I have a misnomer comes, you know, stuttering, which is actually another. I have a friend, a new friend who, is really helping me to repair even that, you know, since the time of time is also a construct that, leads us to harmful action. But yeah, it’s usually when I’m like, well, I’m not. The best I am right now or at the best or that, you know? And I’m

Taylor Camille: Striving for that. Yeah. I can, I can relate to that too. And I mean, even if it’s just like, I, don’t not that I want to be the smartest person in the room, but if I’m amongst other smart people, I want to be, feel equal, like feel on an equal field.

Jerron Herman: Right

Taylor Camille: You know? I did want to talk to you about health and wellness and just, I mean, in a general sense, What does that mean? Or look like to you? And if you think, in the health and wellness space, there’s been made room for people with disabilities or for, conversations surrounding disability?

I feel like I was just talking to my aunt and I was telling her about, I don’t know if you saw the New York Times, like rollout those, like. ADA stories like right about the anniversary of the American disabilities Act and so they were talking to you know all these different disabled bodies. But it’s like, why can’t we do that year-round?

Like why, why is this something that we reserve for a special moment in time? And like, why? I don’t know. I was just, I wasn’t, I was, I was excited. I did, but I also was like, but why. Why now and its so frustrating because, well, I’m now answering the question, but it’s just frustrating, you know, it’s just so frustrating to see. to see. I don’t know, just to see things like it’s, it’s almost as bad as Black history month. I mean, not to compare the two, but it’s like, why do we only get a moment in time to talk about these things these need to be talking about all the time. It’s not it’s it deserves space. And so I just want your thoughts now that I dumped my opinion on it

Jerron Herman: How do you really feel?

Taylor Camille: Oh me not passionate about it at all. It’s just a thing.

Jerron Herman: Oh my gosh. But no, it was like ADA 30 was intense. It was intense because it was like spotlight for 30 days. And, yeah, everybody and they mama wanted something from my friends from people I know from, you know, like they needed a profile, they needed texts, they needed alt text, they needed, they needed a video.

They needed picture the detail all this stuff. And similarly, it was like, you gotta do it this month. You know, it’s like you only have a month, you don’t have two weeks. You only have two days like I needed this yesterday. And so I think the conversation is not actually, and it’s really strange because, man, we already have physical therapy.

We already have occupational therapy. We already have systems that are there to actually, I would like to say like in terms of how the medical system even thinks about disability, it’s, it’s gotta be repaired. Medicine in general, right? Like it’s just such a, there’s such a strong, strong association to, cure that care brings.

And I think in my communities care, it’s looking a lot like individual bases looking to, see the person knowing, you know, them, there’s a relationship there. Even if there isn’t a relationship that access how, Mia Mingus, a disability scholar, and writer talks about access, access intimacy, which is a notion of like, it’s elastic that you won’t ever get it right. But that you, that the, the beginning of the inquiry and the beginning of you finding their threshold is intimacy and there’s also the work of, of repairing kind of separation. and so, yeah, that work is great in terms of, of, in terms of wellness, of course, and, I think the conversation needs to get away from again, productivity.

You know, how can we produce a system that allows a person with CP to do as many pushups as, non-disabled, able bodied person like that kind of, comparison game, isn’t going to bring us forward to the state of, you know, sustainable health and wellness to a certain extent, I don’t know how I’m really the one to be talking about health and wellness, because I definitely put myself at risk doing this stuff. I used to operate in a lot of the expected, notions of body image. Although that’s repairing as well, but I, I think the conversation I want to happen is how people, how people can show up. there are these two people, who were thinking about re thinking the gym as not just a place where you just work out your body, but can, you can it lend itself to a collective, to a collective, like, could, could you, could your work be building a garden or could your work be, recycling or, you know, blending, blending, blending helpful measures for the community, right.

And you know how you exert your body. And I love that idea. So I’m really into like, how are we framing health and wellness, and making it open and keeping it open for the things that we’re not expecting to fill it. especially and this is really, really my point, especially because things like disability justice actually help and repair the, the normal systems like I strongly feel that why ADA 30, why disability should actually be more in the milieu you and more because it shouldn’t be just reserved for when you are in a wheelchair when you have an assistance device or when you are in capacity either, but we should be thinking about it. So in a, in a spectrum of like, capacity that could, that could be helped.

That could be supported by an understanding of that word disability, which is at a certain point, you need assistance or at a certain point you will need support. And that we, we normalize that, would help everyone, you know, and we talk about that within the black community, as, as you know, we need to be sharing more we, you know, we need to be thinking about, correct mental health.

But then again, I think the black community also does not really associate disability with, with a racialized viewpoint that, you know, and so that’s where we kind of, we, we cut it off at like again, trying to we, we negate disability or disabilities function in racial politics because we’re still trying to become as good as white people.

Taylor Camille: Right.

Jerron Herman: Or as, as capable. So that would, that would really set us back if we, if we, if we seeded a vulnerability like that or a kind of access point. So, so that kind of, I feel that’s going to keep us back actually. I think you got everyone back. Again, like not identifying their vulnerability, that will make us vulnerable. I think maybe the black and indigenous, disabled communities as being more of a mandela and more of like a, who, you know, talking to each other and so this is the slight differences. I think it’s just cultural too, you know, like Brown people just kind of look at each other a lot more often,

I think.

Taylor Camille: Yeah.

Jerron Herman: Yeah.

Taylor Camille: I think so. So too. And also I just. I’ve always felt that black and Brown people just have more of a sense of community, right. Like checking on each other and, anticipating other’s needs.

And, I think that’s why when a black person does something audacious, we feel like it’s a representation of us. We can’t disassociate from someone else in our tribe. Right. Whereas someone white can do something. Ridiculous. And they, or they can think something totally separate and it’s, you know, it’s, permitted they’re allowed to think individually.

And I think there’s a good and bad to both of those things, right? Like I often find, I would love not to have to, and to think you probably experienced this, you’d be the purveyor of everything, black and disabled or everything, black, and not be the token in the room. there is also such strength in.

Seeing each other and not having to, feel so distant from one another. You know, if you’re in a neighborhood and you exchange a glance or a nod, it’s like the unspoken languages, of this tribe are things. I would never give up.

Jerron Herman: I mean, high of mind is, well, one, because if we all think the same, they’re going to clock us eat or easily, you know, like we put ourselves again in a vulnerable, in a vulnerable spot that like it’s unnecessary.

We don’t have to be, we don’t have to be cajoled and moved and fashion. Right. The whims of other people. You know, as you said, you said loud, people are allowed or white people are allowed to be individuals like, well, we need to give ourselves that allowance too. And I think that we are doing it. I mean, we, we’ve definitely corrected and definitely called our own people throughout, you know, the time of our, of our community within the community.

I think we have to recognize, possibly what, like I think to the outsider, like how does, you know, there’s a nod? What are the nod do in the street versus like, you know, a phone call. And knowing that person, like what is really about our community that does keep us together and just noting those things.

I mean, of course it’s culture, of course it’s Moesha and blue magic hair. And just, and just for me, and, happily ever after you know, like these moments. we just have to identify how they make us a community. it’s the same, the disability community I’m finding. It’s just like, man, I don’t want to get caught in a place where we lose our usefulness because we’ve lost our perspective or our varied perspective.

Taylor Camille: Right? Yeah. Because. Yeah, that’s more powerful than everyone saying, you know, I went the flow because the majority is going with it. It’s way more powerful to speak on your own, experience. And even if that’s not immediately accepted, just share that so people can understand where you’re coming from. Because as much as we yearn for like shared experience, there’s so much value in someone who’s not like you, if I’ve learned that, that’s the one thing I’ve learned in life is like going to a freaking, private white institution, all these places where I’ve, I felt uncomfortable. Like there is a value in my discomfort and there’s value in, differences. For sure. I can, that’d be closed off to people just because they think differently than me or just because they’ve come into this world differently than me. Right. I have to open up my mind to the possibility that I’m not the standard.

I think everyone should do that. I think everyone should do that.

Jerron Herman: I mean, well, here’s the rub, right? Like the first time I was called, like the N word with the hard hard. E R was when I was at NYU, like, you know, socially liberal, you know, politically liberal place, by a white man. And then I go to this like conservative school and Kings college where they’re like, you know, I shouldn’t have expected a lot of.

No barrier. And I was treated with the utmost respect. Right. And I was treated and I was given my full humanity. So you never know where it’s coming from, you know? And, and we have to, like, I guess this is a reminder for me, even with like my, now that I’m kind of identifying with institutions that aren’t institutions, especially who’s doing it right.

Who do I want to latch to and being disappointed, right? Like, disappointment doesn’t mean you stop, evolving with that entity with that thing. Right. I wonder how long does it take to really cut off an experience, you know, cut off, a line of connection and I’m still discovering that.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. Yeah. Woof. So crazy. Think about all of these things and, and you know, it’s like, I don’t know if we’ll ever reach an answer, but the discovery and the journey is, is very it’s nice just to think and be in, those thought spaces?

Jerron Herman: It is.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. I don’t like these other three questions I have for you, really..

Jerron Herman: Oh, okay, drop em

Taylor Camille: I like this question actually, what constitutes to you, and I think these are kind of things we were just talking about, but what constitutes to you a safe space and when do you know or feel safe? I think that, yeah

Jerron Herman: I feel safe when I’m laughing. I feel safe when I say space is talking about beauty. In all the forms, when I have a, like a, a space that is just, is going to do that work of like we’re here, we see each other for all we are. That’s when I feel safe. I feel unsafe with judgment. I feel unsafe with judgment that isn’t toward me.

That’s towards someone else. Like, you know, I, cause I, I, then I think I always go back to myself, like if you’re judging someone else, cause you have judgment for someone else for something that happened, you know, when am I going to get that? You know, or when it, when is one of the people in the room willing to receive that same kind of critique.

Taylor Camille: Yeah. so, the last question I ask all of my guests, because I too am spiritual and I too, You know, through the turbulence and through the desire to always be productive or in motion, have found that it’s really important to think about what brings you peace. And so I end all of my shows, asking everyone what brings you peace, so it can be anything.

Jerron Herman: I think it was laughter. Yeah, that’s my face. That’s how it is. It’s an indicator for a safe space and it’s also like the product of peace. That’s how I know I’m at peace. Yeah.

Beyond Our Cells is an original series produced and hosted by me Taylor Camille, a variety of the series artwork shared here and on our Instagram @beyondourcells are created by Carmen Johns and Sierra Hood. My hope is that these listening’s have left you with a warm heart and an even cooler mind. I hope you are left feeling able to seek peace in the spaces and places you may find yourself in.

If you’re interested in being on the pod or have any compelling leads, please shoot us an email at info@beyondourcells.com and subscribe and share if you haven’t already.

Check out our feature on Well & Good here